Talk:COMP 3000 Essay 1 2010 Question 4

Discussion

9 am Friday, since it's due Thursday night. As for the papers, I seem to recall him saying that we should be using published papers, but if it's non-published and by someone who's clearly an expert (instead of some random blogger or something) that it'd be okay. If you're not sure, though, give him a shout; he's pretty quick at responding.

--ScottG 22:37, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Guys, are we allowed to use unpublished papers? there is this paper in the SPIN website that is really helpful. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to use it for our essay, anybody has an idea?

Anil said something about grading the essays around 9 AM (or was it PM?). Was he talking about thursday or friday?

--Youcef M. 21:57, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I've basically got the Lisp section done. Gonna probably go back and tweak it, but at least it's there. And I added in what I used as references in the References section as per MLA style.

I can take a look at writing up something for the C/C++ part as well, just not sure how much I'll be able to get in the time I've got to spare between other courses right now. But I'll certainly try.

--ScottG 15:37, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Could somebody add a bit in the introduction on what it means to be an operating system written in C/C++? One focus should probably be the notion of process as hinted by Anil. There are probably other distinctions that can be dredged up too.

--Jjpwilso 02:57, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Got some stuff up, rough copy only. Meant to get more done, but family stuff came up. More to come tomorrow.

--ScottG 02:26, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Right then, I'm on it.

--Mkugler 01:19, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi MK, and welcome to the group. Anil mentioned Oberon just today, which is apparently another OS based on a cousin of modula-3. If you could find a way to extend the Modula-3 section with Oberon, perhaps with your own subsection (Youcef has already started with a SPIN section) that should help us round things up nicely. Note the goal is to compare capabilities with C/C++, so feel free to take a global view for thematic consistency too. I'll be doing a bit more in this respect on the Smalltalk section. As Anil said in lecture today, it should hold together as an essay even without the wiki-ish headings.

--Jjpwilso 01:07, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Hey guys. I'm a bit late to the punch on this as I've been preoccupied with a ton of other stuff. I've read through what you've all done thus far and frankly think it's phenomenal, which brings me to my quandry. I wasn't here when you all laid claim to the various components of the essay and am not entirely certain where my efforts should be directed. I noticed that LISP so far is empty, but that it was claimed by ScottG on the 8th.

Is there anywhere in particular where you would like me to work? I'm committed to spending the better part of the next 48 hours entirely on this, so I can put together anything remaining that's needed. If you guys can't get back to me, I'll just expand on whatever I can find more information on.

--Mkugler 23:16, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

The SPIN work is looking good Youcef. Note: please try to put links to your sources in the text so we can see where your ideas are coming from.

--Jjpwilso 20:45, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Anil gave me another clue into how he was thinking of comparisons between these OSes and C/C++. For Smalltalk at least the central theme mentions nothing about processes. Smalltalk is about objects, methods, and messages rather than the traditional C notion of processes manipulating data. This distinction or something similar to it may be useful when looking at other operating systems we're exploring.

--Jjpwilso 20:42, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I've got some small amount of comparison in mine (haven't posted it, since I'm still trying to compile info on MIT's Lisp Machine, but will likely have most of it up tonight), but I would think it would be easier to perhaps do some small comparisons in the individual sections -- I'll be pointing out some differences in Genera and C++ OS's in OO memory, for example -- and then make some more broad strokes in the conclusion encompassing two or more of our chosen OS's and C/C++.

--ScottG 19:19, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi all. I'm gradually posting the sections that I finished so far I'd love to hear your thoughts and comments.

Anil also mentioned an important note on our question, we have to compare these operating systems to the ones developed using C and C++. Are we going to do that in the conclusion section? because so far we are not answering the second half of the question.

As for the Oberon, I just did a quick read in Wiki and it says that its written in oberon programming language. But it says its based on a modified version of Modula-2 and they don't mention modula-3, can we still talk about this OS? I cant really start on that today I have a chemistery midterm tomorrow morning, and tomorrow I'm going to finish the rest of SPIN sections.

--Youcef M. 19:00, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the link Anil! For the group: I asked Anil a couple of questions after class today, and another OS he had in mind was Oberon, invented by the creator of Modula-3. I don't know if there's more to find about this than there is about SPIN but I've got my hands full for now.

--Jjpwilso 18:29, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Rather than Squeak I was thinking about Smalltalk-80. Here's a book on Smalltalk that's available online in the ACM digital library. Just the preface should tell you everything you need to know. Anil 03:15, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Great work on the Java section. I might toss in a bit on the problems section about cross-platform compatibility once I get done with my part.

--Jjpwilso 23:57, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I've posted what I have written so far for the Java section, if anyone has any suggestion/corrections feel free to post them. EDIT: I've added the other sections of the Java based operating system.

--Selliot3 16:50, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Re: Motivation. I had Smalltalk in mind when I roughed out the headings and it's pretty much what you suggested. But the headings are only a guideline. If you prefer a different structure for your sections feel free to improvise. As for format I am assuming an essay style.

Re: SPIN. The ACM site has some stuff. You'll need your student card handy to get through the Carleton Library proxy.

Here are a couple of links (you can find a TON more if you search for SPIN at the top of the portal):

Distributed LTL model-checking in SPIN

Using SPIN for feature interaction analysis—a case study

--Jjpwilso 16:25, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

This is all I could find on SPIN

SPIN-An extensible microkernel for application-specific operating system devices [1]

Extensibility, Safety and Performance in the SPIN Operating System [2]

SPIN-Operating System [3]

Lecture 9: SPIN operating system [4]

--Youcef M. 16:06, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

What is meant by "Motivation"? Would that be motivation to use the language for an operating system? Also, what format should we be doing this in? I'm pretty much writing in an essay style for the overview to explain all of the operating systems in Java with an introduction and a paragraph for each of the systems. Then, I would fill out a paragraph or two for Motivation, Problems, etc. Does that seem fine?

--Selliot3 15:13, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Here's a link to the main SPIN website.

--Jjpwilso 16:40, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll start right away, but the reference link doesn't work...

--Youcef M. 15:06, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Welcome, Youcef. It would probably be best if you focused on one operating system for now. Nobody has claimed SPIN yet, the OS in Modula-3. Do you think you could dig into that? There's a good reference below.

--Jjpwilso 15:02, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Hey guys I'm in the group, sorry for not adding something yet. I've been working on a table which has all the operating systems in those languages and comparing them to each other. But it was harder than I thought, I was trying to find where the OS's are similar and where they are different. It got a little bit long and random; I can find a lot of info on one OS but almost none on the other. Do you guys think its worth the trouble to finish it or should just forget about and keep up with you guys?

--Youcef M. 14:41, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Particular to Squeak: Back to the Future - The Story of Squeak, A Practical Smalltalk Written in Itself

--Jjpwilso 13:29, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

From an interview with Alan Kay, founder of Smalltalk, I tracked down a very useful history: The Early History of Smalltalk. There happen to be some important foundational points in here (with references) that relate to other systems as well. For instance he explains how LISP was a vital part of how he came to understand the power of languages. Warning: it's quite long and I don't understand half of it.

--Jjpwilso 13:02, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd be fine doing LISP, among throwing out anything good for the other languages I happen to come across.

--ScottG 21:27, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay, lets all put down our preferences here and set a reasonable deadline of Saturday at 23:59 for a cutoff. Smalltalk would be my top choice. Of course any contributions to any language will be welcome.

--Jjpwilso 16:07, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I would love to do the Java section. I`ve done quite a bit of development on Android and have also read a complete book on how the Android operating system works. Of course, there are other OS`s to look at but I`m a big fan of Android so I`m always happy to write about it haha.

--Selliot3 15:44, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I recommend we use the habit of putting more recent comments at the top in case this gets to be a longish list. I've gone ahead and stubbed out a proposed structure. Please comment (thumbs up/down). If we all agree we can start dividing up the parts so we don't do the same work. We're lucky as a team to have such a nicely partitioned essay to write!

--Jjpwilso 13:23, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Genera (LISP) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genera_(operating_system) <-- only for a reference for now
SPIN (Modula) - http://www-spin.cs.washington.edu%2Fexternal%2Foverview.html
Squeak (SmallTalk) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeak <-- only a reference, says it's a programming language but can be used as an OS
JavaOS (Java) - http://java.sun.com/developer/products/JavaOS/

--Selliot3 00:16, 6 October 2010 (UTC) or Charles

Not a great site, but gives a nice breakdown of the main points of Squeak - http://www.visoracle.com/squeak/overview.html
And a much longer, more in-depth Squeak page - http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/wolfgang.kreutzer/cosc205/smalltalk1.html
A nice breakdown for JavaOS - http://www.operating-system.org/betriebssystem/_english/bs-javaos.htm
And a very nice PDF for Genera - http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=183015&tag=1
--ScottG 13:08, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

For Java section: What is Android shows the limited role of DVM (Android's JVM).
--Jjpwilso 14:31, 7 October 2010 (UTC)