Talk:COMP 3000 Essay 1 2010 Question 10

Hey all,

I think we should write down our emails here so we can further discuss stuff without having to login here. (***Note that discussions over email can't be counted towards your participation grade!***--Anil)

Geoff Smith (gsmith0413@gmail.com) - gsmith6 Andrew Bujáki (abujaki [at] Connect or Live.ca)

• • • I'm usually on MSN(Live) for collaboration at nights, Just make sure to put in a little message about who you are when you're adding me. :)

I used Google Scholar and came to this page http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=812717&tag=1# Which briefly touches on the issues of Flash memory. Specifically, inability to update in place, and limited write/erase cycles.

Inability to update in place could refer to the way the flash disk is programmed, instead of bit-by-bit, it is programmed block-by-block. A block would have to be erased and completely reprogrammed in order to flip one bit after it's been set. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory#Block_erasure

Limited write/erase: Flash memory typically has a short lifespan if it's being used a lot. Writing and erasing the memory (Changing, updating, etc) Will wear it out. Flash memory has a finite amount of writes, (varying on manufacturer, models, etc), and once they've been used up, you'll get bad sectors, corrupt data, and generally be SOL. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory#Memory_wear

Filesystems would have to be changed to play nicely with these constraints, where it must use blocks efficiently and nicely, and minimize writing/erasing as much as possible.

I found a paper that talks about the performance, capabilities and limitations of NAND flash storage.

Abstract: "This presentation provides an in-depth examination of the fundamental theoretical performance, capabilities, and limitations of NAND Flash-based Solid State Storage (SSS). The tutorial will explore the raw performance capabilities of NAND Flash, and limitations to performance imposed by mitigation of reliability issues, interfaces, protocols, and technology types. Best practices for system integration of SSS will be discussed. Performance achievements will be reviewed for various products and applications. "

Link: http://www.flashmemorysummit.com/English/Collaterals/Proceedings/2009/20090812_T1B_Smith.pdf

There's no Starting place like Wikipedia, even if you shouldn't source it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_Memory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LogFS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_disk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wear_leveling

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_spot_%28computer_science%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_drive

Hey Guys,

We really don't have much time to get this done. Lets meet tomorrow after class and get our bearings to do this properly.

Fedor

A few of us have Networking immediately after class. I know personally I won't be able to make anything set on Tuesday. Additionally, he spoke briefly about hotspots on the disk for our question last week, where places on the disk would be written to far more often than others. As well, for bibliographical citing, http://bibme.org is a wonderful resource for the popular formats (I.e. MLA). If it should come down to that. ~Andrew

links

Start Posting some stuff to source from:

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=1199079&tag=1 --"Introduction to flash memory"

http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1244248 --"Wear Leveling" (it's about a proposed way of doing it, but explains a whole bunch of other things to do that)

http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1731355 --"Online maintenance of very large random samples on flash storage" (ie dealing with the constraints of Flash Storage in a system that might actually be written to 100000 times)

Hi everybody,

So here are the latest news. Geoff, Andrew and myself had a meeting after class today and came up with a plan for writing this thing.

We decided to have 3 parts:

1. What flash storage is, why its good but also why it must have the problems that it does (the assumption is that it must have them, why would it otherwise?) [don't know much about this just now... basics include that there is NOR (reads slightly faster)and NAND (holds more, writes faster, erases much faster, lasts about ten times longer) flash with NAND being especially popular for storage (what's NOR good for?). Here, we'd ideally want to talk about why flash was invented (supposed as an alternative to slow ROM), why it was suitable for that, and how it works on a technical level. Then, we'd want to mention why this technical functionality was innovative and useful but also why it came with two serious set-backs: having a limited-number of re-write cycles and needing to erase a block at a time.]

2. How a traditional disk-based file-system works and why the limitations of flash storage make the two a poor match [the obvious answer seems to be that traditional file-systems could just write to whatever memory was available but if they did this with a flash file-systems, certain chunks of memory would become unusable before others and the memory would be more difficult to work with. Also, disk-based file systems need to deal with seeking times which means that they want to organize their data in such a way as to reduce those (by putting related things together?) - with Flash, this isn't really a problem and thus one constraint the less to be concerned with.]

3. How a log based file-system works and why this method of operation is so well suited to working with flash memory especially in light of the latter's inherent limitations [...]

At this time, the plan is that Geoff will work on #3 today, Andrew will work on #1 tomorrow and I will work on #2 tomorrow. The three of us will make an effort to consult some somewhat more painfully technical literature in order to gain insight into our respective queries. Whatever insight we find will be posted here.

Then, we will meet again on Thursday after class to decide how to actually write the essay.

PS, if there is anybody in the group besides the three of us - let us know so you can find a way to contribute to this... as at least two of us are competent essayists, painfully technical research would on one or more of the above topics would be a great way to contribute... especially if you could post it here prior to one of us going over the same thing.

Fedor

-- I'm not that great (but absolutely horrid) at essays and I'm alright at research, but if nothing else I have Thursday off and nothing (else) that needs doing by Friday so I can probably spend a bunch of time working on it just before it's due. -- Nick L

PS, this article http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:E7-H_pv_18wJ:citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.92.2279%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf+flash+memory+and+disk-based+file+systems&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgspy-jqIdLOpaLYlPPoM56kjLPwXcL3_eMbTTBRkI7PG0jQKl9vIieTAYHubPu0EdQ0V4ccaf_p0S_SnqKMirSIM0Qoq5E0NpLd0M7LAGaE51wkD0F55cRSkX8dnTqx_9Yx2E7&sig=AHIEtbS-yfGI9Y48DJ0WyEEhmsXInelRGw looks really useful for part 3.

PPS, and this article looks really great for understanding how log based file systems work: http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/150000/146943/p26-rosenblum.pdf?key1=146943&key2=3656986821&coll=GUIDE&dl=GUIDE&CFID=108397378&CFTOKEN=72657973

Hey Guys, Anandtech ran a series of articles on solid state drives that you guys might find useful. It mostly looked at hardware aspects but it gives some interesting insights on how to modify file systems to better support flash memory.

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/intel/showdoc.aspx?i=3403 http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3531&p=1 http://anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3631

--3maisons 19:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC)